1 Ashnook

Ludi had mentionen making a thread about this, but I havent seen it yes so I figured Id make it. I want for all of us to dicuss the dangers of evokations and I would like to read some personal or 2nd hand experiences. For about a month before we were hacked the first time I remember coming to the forums and almost every day seeing something like this. "uhh hello all, Ive been studying CM for 2 months now, and I was just wondering if im ready to start summoning demons from the goetia".......and frankly I was getting tired of posting the same thing to these threads over and over and over. Maybe if we discuss the dangers of it then someone new to CM will read it and think twice about the next time they are listening to morbid angel and thinking about summoning Lucifer.

2 Blackarts34

Some things I have encountered personaly nightmares, pyschic attacks, physcial attacks, poltergiest activity, general terror and madness. Once I didn't banish at all after evoking one spirit because I wanted to see what would happen. That night I awoke from this horrible nightmare and suddenly I felt this invisible force crushing my head. It was pinning me down on my bed. I could move the rest of my body except for my head and there was this undescribable pain engulfing it. Terror and panic almost overcame me until I started to mentally perform a couple of banishing rituals. The force went away immediately but it took me awhile to go back to sleep. When I woke the next morning the whole right side of my body felt brusied like someone beat me up. Also there were small cuts on my hands and wrists. Moral of the story? Make sure you are confident with your banishing rituals and always utilize them even if you think nothing showed up and your operation was a failure. Of course proper banishing is only part of the criteria necessary to performing something like this safely and effectively.

3 Ekron

This link may be of interest. I have used it recently in another post but I thought it may prove to be interesting in the context of Ashnook's thread.
Scroll down to "Authentic copy of a letter....Aug. 2nd 1703". I do appologise it is rather lengthy but I hope you may find it fascinating.
http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/sibly4.htm

4 Frater Manjet

My only advice is not to invite someone into you home, if you cannot evict them if necessary.

5 Doh

It's a good rule of thumb to really KNOW protections and banishings and bindings BEFORE you EVER attempt to summon anything. And even then, it's a good idea to start with "lesser" entities. As the old saying goes, don't stick anything in your ear larger than your elbow. If you have to ponder that, then you may not be ready to summon "anything larger than your elbow".

6 DestinyEternity

Summoning in ritual is not always needed either to invoke an entity, merely thinking or reading something in your head can summon a lesser entity that you may have to kick out of your house. And, the archangels are not fuzzy and cutesy 'nice' 'angels' like some (not all) people believe, they will mess you up if they feel like it. (That was learned by me many, many years ago) Now, I wouldn't bother calling on them for anything, but my beliefs and practices have changed since.

7 Frater Manjet

I will also add that a common misconception of evokation/invokation with newcomers is they failt to see that these operations are merely tools; not and be all and end and all of magick.
If your destination in pursuit of magick is evokation or invokation you have missed the mark entirely.

8 LadyHydralisk

Whenever I evocate I always strive to express only pure and compleat love for the entity abiding in the triangle. Not partial love or conditional love but perfect compassion and empathy. In this way nothing can or would be able to harm. It's difficult for me to attain and maintain such a pure state of mind, however. In the word pure I do not mean good or light since this is, to me, a fallible concept. I only mean pure as only dark and light in perfect balance can be, the yin and yang, siva and shakti.

9 Ashnook

I really like how this thread it turning out. I want to comment on a few things.
The posts about "dont invite something into your home that ou cant evict". This is VERY TRUE! Ive had entities NOT leave after giving the liscense to depart and when dealing with the simon nec entities the LBRP is often inafective. So you need to have a few tricks up your sleeve incase the worst happens. Also I want to add to that statement that the discriptions of entities often are misleading. The spellbook version of the nec makes a comment about how Gilma can aid a kindergarden student learn shapes... this would give the discription that he is nice and fluffy...WRONG!
I would also like to comment about the post made about not having to do ritual to evoke something. IAM made a good point about the construction of circles, how when you do it in the astral it is also done in the physical (as above so below). SO lets take that and add it to Destiny's statement. Say you are reading the goetia or grandGrimorie or something of the sort, you are reading it in the physical and then all sorts of stuff pops up in you brain...which then manifests itself in the asral and in turn the physical. I know its confusing, but juts think about it.

10 Ekron

"Pure and complete love", indeed, the greatest amulet we can possess.

11 Ludi

Thank you for this thread!

12 Yazan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DestinyEternity

Summoning in ritual is not always needed either to invoke an entity, merely thinking or reading something in your head can summon a lesser entity that you may have to kick out of your house. And, the archangels are not fuzzy and cutesy 'nice' 'angels' like some (not all) people believe, they will f*ck you up if they feel like it. (That was learned by me many, many years ago) Now, I wouldn't bother calling on them for anything, but my beliefs and practices have changed since.


I will have to say I disagree
As long as it is not your will to summon an entity, thinking about it will not summon it. There are countless people who own countless magic-related books but they only own then for reading. If reading these books summons lesser entities for them, then I don't want to hear about their lives, LOL.

13 WickerMan

Thanks, Ashnook. This thread is indeed very useful.
I'm agreeing with Yazan on this. If every time one thought about an entity, one summoned it, even in a lesser form, then there'd be a horde of demons living in every venue that Morbid Angel's ever played in.

14 Palindroem

unfortunately, there are quite a few magicians that will give good experiences of feelling the entity well prior to the actual summoning.
I think that to feel their developing presense during strong "constructive" phases;
sigil creation, writing uniquely composed calls or summons, day-long intensive physical (temple) preperations,
is not unusual.
The "rituals" of summoning is just a moment of galvanizing an intent.
Its really the intent (and the 'strength' of the magician) the causes the summoning.

15 Yazan

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindroem

Its really the intent (and the 'strength' of the magician) the causes the summoning.

Thanks! thats what I was trying to say when I said "will" (intent is a better word so that we don't get mixed up with thelema for those who just began getting into CM...).

16 Ashnook

From MY own experiences reading books such as the grand grimoire, necronomicon, etc, etc can attract some negative influences. I think this is what Destiny was talking about. You may not be summoning anything by just reading the books, but try reading the necronomicon at 3 in the morning with the only light sorce being a black candle and you�ll see what I mean Also, has anyone ever "failed" an evokation only to find out that the spirit really was there? And stayed there because you didnt banish?

17 Blackarts34

That has happened to me before. I was extremely careless and it wasn't until later that I found out that the spirit was really there but by then it was too late. This led to another fun lesson in the dangers of evocation. I had upset the spirit immensly because like an idiot I went through the whole chain curse and black box procedure demanding it show up when all along it was right there. This is the poltergeist activity that me and my roomate at the time were unfortunate to witness. Things in our kitchen started shattering in pieces like these porcelain jars and coffee mugs. We thought somebody broke in and was tearing our kitchen up but that was not the case. It only lasted a few minutes but it was one of the most terrifying things that I experienced. And still later that same week our kitchen caught on fire and almost burned down our apartment complex.

18 Ekron

I remember reading from a book on withcraft and blackmagic when I first started getting interested in the occult (mid to late 1960's). Within this book was a spell for the evocation of the devil. I started reciting the words when there was a strong smell of sulphur within the room. I immediately stopped reading and closed the book. Nothing further happened that day.
I can only assume it was my intent to summon the devil, even if it was on the subconscious level. To this day I never read evo/invocations in their entirety unless it is my concious intent to summon.

19 Redeemer

You also have to consider that many newcomers are not trained in controlling their thoughts. Just as it takes a strong act of will sometimes to conjure a goetic entity that may have someplace it would rather be, that same entity may readily come to the curious neophyte who is unprepared. That is why I feel one should have a strong grounding in banishments and the like before even studying evocation.

20 Visceral/spagyrical

Quote: Originally Posted by DestinyEternity

Summoning in ritual is not always needed either to invoke an entity, merely thinking or reading something in your head can summon a lesser entity that you may have to kick out of your house. And, the archangels are not fuzzy and cutesy 'nice' 'angels' like some (not all) people believe, they will f*ck you up if they feel like it. (That was learned by me many, many years ago) Now, I wouldn't bother calling on them for anything, but my beliefs and practices have changed since.

I will have to say I disagree
As long as it is not your will to summon an entity, thinking about it will not summon it. There are countless people who own countless magic-related books but they only own then for reading. If reading these books summons lesser entities for them, then I don't want to hear about their lives, LOL.
Considering you decided intent would be a better word, I'm going to reply to this as if will = intent. I hope that's okay.
If your intent IS to summon something, and it's been your intent for a while, there's a very good chance that constantly thinking about doing it will do the trick. If everytime you think about doing it, you intend to do it, even though you never actually sit down and will it to happen through ritual, chances are it WILL happen regardless.
For the past few weeks, I've been thinking about (and intending to) evoke something along the lines of a tazmanian devil to play tricks at a local supermarket where I work. However, I never actually got around to doing it. Well, it happened. Two nights ago, I walked into the supermarket at about 2:30am and happened to be wearing my "ceremonial bandana" (which I wear while I write when I'm writing to cause change). And I thought about doing it, just like I do everytime I step foot in that store.
Last night, I went to work and found out that something, or someone, (in other words, an entity because there weren't any customers at the time and none of the employees were in the vicinity) decided to toss a six pack of soda on the floor a half hour after I left the nght before. It made a big mess and a very loud pop (because the bottles were glass) and everyone ran to check it out. The manager got the closest of everyone and ended up getting so light-headed he had to sit down on the floor right then and there.
One of my coworkers (who practices from the Necronomicon) asked me if I had anything to do with it. I thought for a moment and said, no. But then I thought some more and told him exactly what people have been suggesting in this thread.
Maybe it is possible to evoke something just by thinking about it with intent. Then again, maybe what I just described was just a freaky coincidence.

21 Yazan

Ahh, you have a point.
I do agree that if you have been planning to do something (magical) but never actually gotten to do it, then thinking about it and having it actually happen. It happened to me a few times, where I wanted to perform a ritual for something and that thing happens while I am still preparing for the ritual. So you have a good point in this regard.
However, I was refering to simply reading the grimoire. Yes, you may intend to invoke it, but usually when one does a preparatory reading (or just any reading without the intentto summon), the parson's current intent (or will) is simply to read and not to summon, and so this new, more urgent intent will negate the background intent to summon. At least thats how it is in my experience...

22 Palindroem

And I'll be the first to agree that not ALL intentions (or applications of Will) cause effect. I'm sure (just look around) almost all don't produce effects.
Hell, lots of directed, energized, intent (Magick) doesn't result.
But thought (real thougt, Intent . . Will) is form astrally.
I'm the first to atest to how difficult it is to translate my thinking/acting to astral form . . . consciously.
Lots of subconscious intentions are always at work though.

23 ShekinahMoon

Quote: Originally Posted by Frater Manjet

My only advice is not to invite someone into you home, if you cannot evict them if necessary.
Wise words.
I know this week I have been so busy that I let my daily LBRP and Middle Pillar fall by the wayside. This morning I was half sleep and half awake and I heard something that sounded like spray from a bottle. And when I tried to open my eyes my face jerked to the left like something sprayed on my face. I then woke totally up. Not sure what that was about. But some banishing is very much in order. By the way no one was in my house so its not like someone pulled a prank on me.

24 Ludi

Could that not have perhaps merely been the tail-end of a dream?

25 Ekron

Sometimes entities wish to contact us. This happened to Dr.John Dee; this is from "The Private Diary of Dr. John Dee" published 1842, page 11, 'March 8 1581, "the strange noyse in my chamber of knocking; and the voyce, ten tymes repeted, somewhat like the shrich of an owle, but more longly drawn, and more softly, as it were in my chamber". There are similar entries for the 3rd and 4th of August.
This is prior to the Enochian revelations of Dee and Kelly.

26 Ludi

Yes, a voice which repeats itself ten times definitely wants to be heard!

27 I AM

While I have been a solitary Magickian during my life I have known other Magickians.
I personally knew one experienced Magickian that died during an Evokation of a Goetic entity. His death was unusual in that he jumped through a third story window DURING THE RITUAL and died when he hit, head first, on the pavement below.
Other Magickians I have known have had runs of extremely bad luck and nightmarish experiences after failing to Banish properly...usually Goetic Rituals but also some Necronomicon Rituals.
One Magickian, while performing a Necronomicon Ritual failed to pay attention to the "Watcher". He suffered a heart attack but survived. However, he never performed Magick again.
I also know one Magickian who had to undergo psychiatric treatment for 5 years after a "failed" Goetic summoning. He too also never practiced Magick again.
In my own experiences I have been attacked both Astrally AND Physically by three entities, this after BANISHING. Not one of my better Necronomicon experiences, but I will remember it.
I could go on but you get the idea.

28 Astral Alien

Quote: Originally Posted by Ashnook

when dealing with the simon nec entities the LBRP is often inafective.


I have read the necronomicon (Simon) and knew that the author suggests not using Golden Dawn banishings because it isn't "effective", could it be that some people actually fear this statement and lost trust in the LBRP against necro entities, thus rendering it ineffective? Or is there a proper reason behind it? In which case I need examples of this to be convinced.

29 I AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Astral Alien

I have read the necronomicon(Simon) and knew that the author suggests not using Golden Dawn banishings because it isn't "effective", could it be that some people actually fear this statement and lost trust in the LBRP against necro entities, thus rendering it ineffective? Or is there a proper reason behind it? In which case I need examples of this to be convinced.


The LBRP NEVER worked for me when working with the Necronomicon. And believe me, when I tried using it I was VERY motivated. I was also an experienced Magickian at this time.

30 Astral Alien

Quote: Originally Posted by I AM

The LBRP NEVER worked for me when working with the Necronomicon. And believe me, when I tried using it I was VERY motivated. I was also an experienced Magickian at this time.


I see... But what exactly happened? The experience?

31 Redeemer

The entities involved in the Necronomicon predate the LBRP by quite some time. It was never designed to banish in that context and the mathematics do not add up. In that mythology, the Pentagram looses it's effectiveness to some degree due to how it is represented. Also, the Summerian/Babalonian etc. entities are arguably (IMO) the most powerful in existence. But their power is of a different kind.
If one were to use a more "modern day" banishing against the Nec entities the BRH can be effective but you have to be good at it. This was discussed at length before this site was attacked. Also, there are banishings after a fashion in the Nec that do work, you just have to choose the right ones. After all, you wouldn't use a flat tip screwdriver to turn a philips head screw right?
Lastly, to fully understand what is meant by this, you must do the banishings; really experience their power. I won't knock the LBRP, it is powerful (Otherwise I Am would not have used it). However it is my guess that he didn't realize why it failed in that context until he felt it fail.
Feel free to add to this (Anyone) as my words may not suit the subject as good as they could.

32 Ekron

Forgive me I'm not familiar with the necronomicon.
So with regards to the BRH and the Necronomicon would you use all six hexagrams for the sun as is used for the Kings in Enochian magick?

33 I AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Redeemer

The entities involved in the Necronomicon predate the LBRP by quite some time. It was never designed to banish in that context and the mathematics do not add up. In that mythology, the Pentagram looses it's effectiveness to some degree due to how it is represented. Also, the Summerian/Babalonian etc. entities are arguably (IMO) the most powerful in existence. But their power is of a different kind.
If one were to use a more "modern day" banishing against the Nec entities the BRH can be effective but you have to be good at it. This was discussed at length before this site was attacked. Also, there are banishings after a fashion in the Nec that do work, you just have to choose the right ones. After all, you wouldn't use a flat tip screwdriver to turn a philips head screw right?
Lastly, to fully understand what is meant by this, you must do the banishings; really experience their power. I won't knock the LBRP, it is powerful (Otherwise I Am would not have used it). However it is my guess that he didn't realize why it failed in that context until he felt it fail.
Feel free to add to this (Anyone) as my words may not suit the subject as good as they could.


You are correct. I had no clue why the LBRP was failing way back then. I only knew it was useless.
Back then I had almost no resources available to me other than the "Golden Dawn", the "Necronomicon", and a few of the Grimoires. The Internet was not available and I lived in a small town in Tennessee (hill country, moonshine, Bible Belt, Etc.). I was pretty frustrated for awhile until I developed and started using the "Banishing Wave" technique that I shared with Redeemer.

34 Ashnook

Ive found both the BRH and LBRH effective. When I summoned Gilma he was standing right at the edge of my circle the whole time, as well as ran strait into it when he first came (luckily my defences held). He was deffinetly the strongest entity Ive ever summoned. I tried the LBRP to see if it would even knock him back or if he would even flinch (he didnt leave when I gave the nec liscence to depart, nor did he leave when I gave a "western" lisence to depart) and he still stood there glaring at me. I preformed the LBRH and followed it with a banishing ritual that I made and he finally left. On one other occasion another spirit from the nec tested my circle and blew out my candles, but he stopped as soon as my sisters cat came in the room. She walked calmy into my circle staring at the spirit. She calmly sat down beside me and I then commanded the spirit in what I wanted to do and he left promptly. (My sisters cat has been present during 2 of my evokations) As far a goetics go I cant comment from experience because Ive never worked with them, though a large majority of them (from what ive read here on the forums) test the circle. IAM, what do you think about making the nec another talking points?

35 I AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Ashnook

Ive found both the BRH and LBRH effective. When I summoned Gilma he was standing right at the edge of my circle the whole time, as well as ran strait into it when he first came (luckily my defences held). He was deffinetly the strongest entity Ive ever summoned. I tried the LBRP to see if it would even knock him back or if he would even flinch (he didnt leave when I gave the nec liscence to depart, nor did he leave when I gave a "western" lisence to depart) and he still stood there glaring at me. I preformed the LBRH and followed it with a banishing ritual that I made and he finally left. On one other occasion another spirit from the nec tested my circle and blew out my candles, but he stopped as soon as my sisters cat came in the room. She walked calmy into my circle staring at the spirit. She calmly sat down beside me and I then commanded the spirit in what I wanted to do and he left promptly. (My sisters cat has been present during 2 of my evokations) As far a goetics go I cant comment from experience because Ive never worked with them, though a large majority of them (from what ive read here on the forums) test the circle. IAM, what do you think about making the nec another talking points?

As far as I am concerned we SHOULD start it again. Go ahead and create a topic and we will see what the response is. If good enough, then we will make it a Talking Points. Fair enough?

36 Ashnook

Sounds awesome!

37 Phenix218

so the moral of this post is "know exactly what you are summoning" and "know how to effectively banish them"-point taken.

38 Kaymon

Has anyone considered the possibility of doing protection talismans before doing any magik??
While the repetitive rituals or the LBRP may help in protection they are not instant.
Protection talismans can be made to last indefinitely ( please do not try to debate the difference between talisman and amulet you say tomato i say red thing ... etc) so if your circle has been demolished you could rely on your talismans to give you a certain amount of protection.

39 Blackarts34

I think thats unnecessary. And if you perform the LBRP correctly it is instant.

40 Kaymon

However if an entity, is attacking your circle and they break through?? Would it not be wise to have other methods of protection at your disposal??
Other than going "oh s..t, wait hang on a second just need to do the LBRP thanks"

41 Ashnook

Kaymon does have a good point. Look in some of the medival grimories. They offer many talismans (amulet...whatever) for protection. Even the necronomicon has an amulet for protection. And in the time it takes to do a ritual the spirit could already be eating your intestines.

42 Kaymon

Although you should always try and make your own, some of the symbols used in talismans even for good are sometimes associated with death etc.. whether or not someone copied these talismans off the original??? As in if someone destroyed your talismans then the death symbols are the boobie trap and you get your ass kicked??
So dont go copying up talismans from grimoires make your own!!

43 Radiant Star

When you do some types of prayer or meditation or ritual, something builds up over time and you dont always need to go through the whole procedure, you can just get some things to go, it depends how strong you are compared to them.
You just need to know you have more willpower than them and be able to direct it. It is a kind of inner belief and a complete focus. Easier said than done.
However if you got something really really strong, you might have to get someone else to get rid of it.
Me? I would shout for help and run... fast

44 erisdoe

This is secondhand information that I received from someone I feel to be very experienced in goetic evocations. I posted this once before on the old forums. They evoked a goetic entity for healing of another person, and it worked. However, they had not cleaned the area of the triangle sufficiently and there was some of their dog's hair in the triangle. The evocation was successful because the entity transferred the illness from the person to his dog. His dog died. I posted this as this is a big concern for me, as I have two dogs and lots of carpeting. I hope that this information will be useful to someone else as well.
In my limited personal experience, after my first goetic evocation I experienced some depression and a very "heavy" sense of lethargy. It took a month or so to fade, longer to go away completely, and a lot of will to get through. Also, some random noises, "shadows", sensed presences by me and others, including my dogs.


45 Kaymon

A demon will always take the most easiest route it can to get the job done as they have many tasks. It may not be just that the dog hair was there.. it could have just triggered the demon to move the disease into someone else. As with other stories i have heard illnesses once they have been removed are normally given to someone more deserving...
Maybe people after evocations face problems like you suggest cause the demons' feel they have been bullied?? Remember once you are out of your circle they can pop in at any time...


46 Ashnook
tis why when doing evokation work you need to do daily banishings.

47 erisdoe

I didn't bully the entity. I try to be polite. That's an interesting thought though. I have heard that this is a relatively common thing (the depression, lethargy) but as I said I have little experience.

48 Kaymon

but does anyone think of the reality of a demon popping in at any time? they can and will do so if that is their wish.. and if you have been bullying them its just waiting for the right moment then SMACK back of the head.. dead... perphaps why some demons like Azazel and Andras dont take any prisoners..

49 Ashnook

You gotta watch out for some of these guys (spirits). Some of them can be worse than an adept psi vamp in the methods of draining the sh*t outa you.

50 Kaymon

Although spirits are different than demons???
When I think of spirit i think of non corporeal
When i think of demon i think non corporeal and corporeal... its not just a case of draining you, its a choice of whether or not they are going to eat you for lunch. Lol

51 Ashnook

Ya, but not just demons will eat you for lunch. There are a lot of other spirits out there that cant resist snacking on a juicy heart or 2. lol

52 Comedian777

There are many spirits that will try and mess with you or test your mettle, so to speak. A few years ago I evoked the solar spirit Sorath. It took forever to get through his BS. He showed me things and changed his appearance, and tested the Circle, and made up stories for so long that by the time I got him really under control. He did do what I asked, sort of, but not in the time frame specified. I have had troublesome experiences with other spirits. I will go into them later. I would recommend NOT sitting in the triangle and not evoking certain Mesopotamian love/sex goddess, from personal experience.

53 Prophecy

It is my belief that the influence and control the magician has over the outside world, including those in it, is only proportional to the power he has within and over himself. Therein, a novice can usually not muster the power required to attract a powerful spirit. If done, however, the novice will find the "inherent power" the circle, magical weapons, and symbols of the operation are supposed to have are not quite sufficient enough to protect him. Why should to spirit listen to you? Why should it even come? If it is because you call it by force of its master, by what authority do you constrict it as such? If you believe it should listen to you and do your will because you invoke the power of the name of God, are you so pure and righteous within your temple which is yourself, that the Holy Spirit can flow sufficiently free through you and bind the spirit before you? Such things should be considered before an invocation to avoid complicated altrications. You may say unto a spirit, "By the name of Jesus Christ..." This spirit may not be of the Judeo-Christian paradigm, and has perhaps never heard of the one they profess as Christ. Now what?
Such are things I believe the conjurer of spirits should keep in mind. Check yourself, and see what makes you superior, that they should kneel and listen.
As for an experience of my own, I have several, though obviously don't want to share them all due to a lack of time on my part. The one I'd like to share is of something that happened to a student under my guide, not to me.
I had a student named Sanka come to my house periodically to receive lessons in basic magical principle, in so far as I myself understood them. He knew I was what could be called a "summoner," and was ever so interested by watching my conjurations, conversations, etc. Well, one day when I was inside reading a what I believe was Augustine's popular "Confessions," my student decided he'd try to conjure a demonic force associated with anger and pain. Apparently he was feeling pretty good about himself after successfully calling a Sylph the day before. So he apparently went about a semi-proper ritual, complete with all the suggested tools, chants, and prayers. I do not know which system he used, being as I wasn't present at the time. Anyways, while reading my book, I heard Sanka scream for help(I live in the country, so he wasn't exactly "bothering the neighbours." It is true that I had a bad feeling in my gut before he called for me, and should have acted upon it before anyone got hurt. So I ran quickly outside, and saw him inside of a circle constructed of sand vomiting as hard as his gut could take. I identified the spirit that was assaulting him, and commanded him with as much will and authority as I could to be silent and wait for my next command, which it did. I walked over, albeit somewhat angry, to my student and after yelling at him for a moment, picked him up, dusted him off, then sent him inside while I banished the spirit. Something I didn't notice until I returned inside was that his nose was also bleeding.
So that is an example of a particularly nasty experience, in which a magician relied too much on the power of the ritual, not examining his own power beforehand.

54 Palindroem

Quote: I would recommend NOT sitting in the triangle and not evoking certain Mesopotamian love/sex goddess, from personal experience

I can see it now . . . .
Ashnook: sitting buck naked in triangle evoking Inanna *POOF*
Inanna: appears wearing high-heeled sandels and a camel-hair fan
Ashnook: *BOING*
Inanna: (pointing low on Ashnook) "HA HA HA HA Thats the best laugh I've have in an eon"
Ashnook: searches for a quick banishing as the blood starts to recirculate
(Sorry, I just had to)

55 I AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaymon

Maybe people after evocations face problems like you suggest cause the demons' feel they have been bullied?? Remember once you are out of your circle they can pop in at any time...

In this I disagree. The reason most people feel ill effects after Goetic Ritual is failure to Banish Properly. If Banishing is performed correctly there should be NO ILL after effects.
Demons cannot just "POP" in any time after Ritual, at least not in my personal experience. Banish and Banish often, especially when new to the Goetia.56 Comedian777

Quote: Originally Posted by palindroem

I can see it now . . . .
Ashnook: sitting buck naked in triangle evoking Inanna *POOF*
Inanna: appears wearing high-heeled sandels and a camel-hair fan
Ashnook: *BOING*
Inanna: (pointing low on Ashnook) "HA HA HA HA Thats the best laugh I've have in an eon"
Ashnook: searches for a quick banishing as the blood starts to recirculate
(Sorry, I just had to)

No it wasn't quite like that, and I didn't sit in the triangle when I attempted to evoke Inanna. I sat in the triangle during an evocation Lugalabdubur. The attempted Inanna evocation got horribly screwed up and I was dealing with the aftereffects for months afterward.

57 I AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Prophecy

It is my belief that the influence and control the magician has over the outside world, including those in it, is only proportional to the power he has within and over himself.

I agree that the more personal power a Magickian has the more influence the Magickian has over the world around them. To me, CM is a powerful method of building personal power. However, many Novices are very successful with Ritual operations during summoning and their will IS manifested in this world. Personal power allows the Magickian to grow beyond much of the trappings of ritual. However, in my experience and the experience of others, ritual does work very effectively. That is why it was created in the first place.

Quote: Originally Posted by Prophecy

Therein, a novice can usually not muster the power required to attract a powerful spirit.

I would submit that just the opposite is often true. The problem that many Magickians new to Ceremonial have is being too successful in their summoning efforts. Be careful what you ask for, you might get it. Once these Magickians get the response many are unable to handle it, mistakes happen, and the Entity has the Magickian for lunch.

Quote: Originally Posted by Prophecy

If done, however, the novice will find the "inherent power" the circle, magical weapons, and symbols of the operation are supposed to have are not quite sufficient enough to protect him.

Many Novices in this Forum have summoned without harm using just these things. The Circle WILL protect. The Tools WILL work. I think what gets most Magickians in trouble is not lack of personal power, it is failure to prepare adequately and FOLLOW the prescribed PROCEDURES. Or the Magickian uses their own devised ritual procedures. Following the procedures DOES work. That is why they were created in the first place. Doing the LBRP does protect (Not with the Necronomicon). This has been my experience and the experience of others.

Quote: Originally Posted by Prophecy

Why should to spirit listen to you? Why should it even come? If it is because you call it by force of its master, by what authority do you constrict it as such? If you believe it should listen to you and do your will because you invoke the power of the name of God, are you so pure and righteous within your temple which is yourself, that the Holy Spirit can flow sufficiently free through you and bind the spirit before you? Such things should be considered before an invocation to avoid complicated altrications. You may say unto a spirit, "By the name of Jesus Christ..." This spirit may not be of the Judeo-Christian paradigm, and has perhaps never heard of the one they profess as Christ. Now what?

Reciting the names in and of itself is not enough. Magickian's have to know they are God. Magickian's have to grasp their own divinity. And the Judeo-Christian paradigm is NOT necessary. Many experienced Magickians have summoned Goetics without using ANY Christian terminology or names. I will also add as an aside that is my belief that each of us is stronger than anything that may come against us. The failure is that either we do not KNOW this or we have not REMEMBERED it. The one exception to this is when we summon Gods.

Quote: Originally Posted by Prophecy

Such are things I believe the conjurer of spirits should keep in mind. Check yourself, and see what makes you superior, that they should kneel and listen.

I agree that once the Magickian starts to feel they are SUPERIOR they are in for disaster. The EGO, in this situation, creates an accident waiting to happen. Many Magickians have gone where they should not have gone due to EGO.

Quote: Originally Posted by Prophecy

As for an experience of my own, I have several, though obviously don't want to share them all due to a lack of time on my part. The one I'd like to share is of something that happened to a student under my guide, not to me.
I had a student named Sanka come to my house periodically to recieve lessons in basic magical principle, in so far as I myself understood them. He knew I was what could be called a "summoner," and was ever so interested by watching my conjurations, conversations, etc. Well, one day when I was inside reading a what I believe was Augustine's popular "Confessions," my student decided he'd try to conjure a demonic force associated with anger and pain. Apparently he was feeling pretty good about himself after successfully calling a Sylph the day before. So he apparently went about a semi-propper ritual, complete with all the suggested tools, chants, and prayers. I do not know which system he used, being as I wasn't present at the time. Anyways, while reading my book, I heard Sanka scream for help(I live in the country, so he wasn't exactly "bothering the neighbors." It is true that I had a bad feeling in my gut before he called for me, and should have acted upon it before anyone got hurt. So I ran quickly outside, and saw him inside of a circle constructed of sand vomitting as hard as his gut could take. I identified the spirit that was assaulting him, and commanded him with as much will and authority as I could to be silent and wait for my next command, which it did. I walked over, I'llbeit somewhat angry, to my student and after yelling at him for a moment, picked him up, dusted him off, then sent him inside while I banished the spirit. Something I didn't notice untill I returned inside was that his nose was also bleeding.
So that is an example of a particularly nasty experience, in which a magician relied too much on the power of the ritual, not examining his own power beforehand.

I submit that this experience is most likely a failure in procedures. It is also an example of a Magickian's EGO taking them where they should not have gone. Fortunate that he had you to assist him.