Mythical Entities - In Your Head
or Independant of It?
ChaosTech
08-27-2004 07:22 PM
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This has been a question that has remained unanswered in the
magickal community that I thought would be fun to discuss.
Some magicians believe mythical entities, like dragons, elves,
faeries, demons, angels, etc, are indepentant entities and so
exist outside of ourselves like our fellow humans and animals.
Other magicians believe mythical entities are purely
anthropmorphised parts of our own psyche and exist either solely
in our individual psyches, or in the collective psyche of the
human race, (like a kind of biological astral realm).
And other magicians believe that there are indeed indepentant
mythical entities, collective thoughtforms of humanity (some
independant and some symbolic), and personal anthromorphised
entities.
But the question still remains unanswered to the magickal
community as a whole.
Here is my thoughts on the subject:
In an example case of the demons of the Goetia, why is it that one
magician claims he has bound them to his will, another claims he
has sealed one in a bottle and thus is the sole master of it, and
another claims that he has outright destroyed one or many of them,
yet they still manifest before any magician who knows how to
summon one?
Another magician will claim that the demons are actually
indepentant entities and either super powerful or weak compared to
a human, but nevertheless are indepentant weither a mass
thoughtform of humanity or something that existed before us or
without us, yet one magician will summon one and ask it if this is
true and it will say yes, while another magician summons the same
one and asks if this is true and it's says no. Why is this so as
well?
It could be argued that the demons are indeed indepentant of us
and that the reason why two magicians get two different responces
is because demons are liers, and this may be so, but I hope to
prove this wrong.
The demons of the Goetia come from a grimiore that alleges to be
from the legendary king of ancient Israel, Solomon, but the
contents of the grimiore shows this to be untrue and from a much
later date. The very names of the demons are simply Hebrew words
anthromorphised into entities, others are even stolen names of
gods and lesser spirits from surrounding cultures of the ancient
Israelites, like Egypt, Canaan, etc, and others are unidentified
to this day. Also the methods of contact, sigils, and attributes
given to them point to a date much later than ancient Israel, as
they contain many elements of magickal and religious symbology of
the early medieval period.
The ancient Israelites had no concept of the majority of the
techniques and workings of the Goetia, and would have viewed such
a manuscript as quite alien and strange.
So the historical evidence of the very Grimiores and the demons
themselves show that this clever little system of magick is indeed
manmade as well as the entities within it.
But even with this fact, there still lies the possibility that
although the demons were created by humanity, the practice of the
grimiore has given them an independant existance through
humanities belief in them. They have became thoughtforms. This may
be true as well, but it still leaves an open question. If they are
indeed independant existing entities now, why can as I said at the
beginning. One magician can destroy one, another can trap one in
an object, and another can bind one to his will and make it a
slave? This makes no sense at all and contradicts the notion that
they are independant beings.
And so all the evidence seems to suggest that they are indeed
within us and not without. But the last question is, are they
personal anthropmorphised powers of our psyche, or humanities
collective psyche. I can't answer this as it's impossible to
seperate the two as weither a collective psyche exists or not, it
is apart of us all and so is personal and collective and there is
no way to divide it to analyze it from a personal psyche.
But nevertheless, it seem obvious to me that the demons of the
goetia are personal anthropmorphised parts of our own self and
when you put one to work on a task, you are merely communicating
to your subconcious with the imagry and symbolism appropriate to
invoke the intent you desire.
With angels you run into the same conclusion with demons as they
stem from the same culture(s). Except for maybe the Enochian type,
which although colored by the Hebraic/Christian thought of
medieval europe, are impossible to analyze as the came from a seer
(Kelly), and so could be indepentant entities he contacted or
anthropmorphised parts of his own mind, or even just downright
lies as he was quite the hoaxer, although there are reasons to
think this not the case as he seemed he really believed what he
was doing.
As far as dragons, faeries, elves, unicorns, dwarves, etc. All of
these mythical beings are usually highly anatomicly incorrect, for
instance most dragons have large bodies and small wings and thus
are aerodynamicly inable fly. And in general most all of them are
clearly formed from combining various physical animal parts, and
so have little reason to be believed to be anything more than
human creations. Not to say that there continued belief in for
ages hasn't created thoughtforms of these entities, but then of
course it's impossible to tell the difference between just a
personal anthropmorphised aspect of yourself and a real
independant astral entity, as even in the case of them telling
information you didn't concious know, or manifesting psyhic
phenomenon, your own subconcious is more than capable of doing the
same thing.
So then, I hope I have shown not only why it's silly to believe
such things have an indepentant existence, but why such things do
what they do.
On the other hand, there are indeed real indepentant entities in
the realm of pure conciousness known as the astral realm, as human
beings can meet and converse this way. But anything else is
impossible to claim as being indepentant, even in the case of
animal spirits, as you can't come back and talk to your cat to see
if it remembered you.
Thoughtforms and egregoreson the otherhand, seem to be real to an
extent, but are nothing compared to a human being no matter how
many share a belief in them. I'm not saying though that a
thoughtform couldn't be made to be as dynamic and intelligent as a
human being, but few magicians have the skill nor desire to do so.
Some of them probably have been made though, that I know of though
I've never encountered one.
Also as far as spirits of the dead go, this is a tough one, and
once again runs into the same problem as animal spirits.
Nuhad418 08-27-2004 07:50 PM
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Quote:
This has been a question that has remained unanswered in the
magickal community that I thought would be fun to discuss.
Some magicians believe mythical entities, like dragons, elves,
faeries, demons, angels, etc, are indepentant entities and so
exist outside of ourselves like our fellow humans and animals.
Other magicians believe mythical entities are purely
anthropmorphised parts of our own psyche and exist either solely
in our individual psyches, or in the collective psyche of the
human race, (like a kind of biological astral realm).
And other magicians believe that there are indeed indepentant
mythical entities, collective thoughtforms of humanity (some
independant and some symbolic), and personal anthromorphised
entities.
But the question still remains unanswered to the magickal
community as a whole.
93 ChaosTech,
I think there may be a missing option between the latter two. I do
think that these entities are extensions of our mind. They are
projected aspects of ourselves...objectified so we may better
understand that which is otherwise unconscious to us. They are of
the realm of metaphor. That realm has its own independent rules
and manners and reality. Our realm and the metaphorical are
perpetually interpenetrating and weaving. So while I see these
entities as part of our minds I also grant them a reality,
objective enough to cause boon or harm on us. Real enough to heal
or harm. Ultimately I think the reason this question has really
never been answered is that either one is fully dedicated to one
view or the other OR the question becomes irrelevant. Most days I
am in the latter camp.
93 93/93
palindroem 08-27-2004 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well ChaosTech . . . no offense, but another failed attempt to
answer a question within the scope of humans limited, linear,
static, material-base, ego-omniscient view of the world.
I'm not trying to put you down, or belittle your attempt. I just
don't think the answer comes from within that scope.
And, it may be an answer thats only useful for YOUR question . . .
if I ask the same question, your answer may not do me any good.
When I try to answer this for myself, I have to start with the
question of:
What is the environment, construct space, that I believe these
things exist within? What is "astral"? Where/what is the substance
of the collective psyche? Where/what do I locate that
externalizable portion of my personal psyche?
(and I think that the question of how do ghosts exists (form,
thier environmental function) is very relevant)
Part of The Mystery is that YOUR questions aren't necassarily for
MY answers . . .
I know nothing!
fatbastard 08-27-2004 08:02 PM
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As far as I see it currently in my work with Alchemy, creatures
like Dragons, Unicorns and mostly
every surrealistic rendering of an animal in alchemy correspond
mainly either to processes/stages or
substances. In the minds of the authors back then, they were
linked basically due to some common
things found between them. And because they are beautifull and
effective, they are used till now.
Besides that, they are powerfull icons to work changes within the
psyche.
I AM 08-27-2004 11:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my experience, Dragons at least are real. And they can be
incredible friends. They can affect both Physical and Astral
realities.
Quote:
As far as dragons, faeries, elves, unicorns, dwarves, etc. All of
these mythical beings are usually highly anatomicly incorrect, for
instance most dragons have large bodies and small wings and thus
are aerodynamicly inable fly. And in general most all of them are
clearly formed from combining various physical animal parts, and
so have little reason to be believed to be anything more than
human creations. Not to say that there continued belief in for
ages hasn't created thoughtforms of these entities, but then of
course it's impossible to tell the difference between just a
personal anthropmorphised aspect of yourself and a real
independant astral entity, as even in the case of them telling
information you didn't concious know, or manifesting psyhic
phenomenon, your own subconcious is more than capable of doing the
same thing.
I have to disagree with this description at least as far as
Dragons are concerned. The ones I have met and conversed with have
NOT fit this description.
Additionally, Dragons do not think like humans do. Many concepts
we take for granted are concepts they do not understand and, even
when explained to them they still have no frame of reference to
put it in. For instance, they do not understand HATE. This has not
just been my experience but also the experience of others.
Those who think that Dragons are an extension of our personality
have probably not talked at length with one. That is not an insult
just an observation.
One cannot own a Dragon however they can give themselves to the
magickian freely.
As a final observation I will say that the Dragons of our legends
are NOT the only Dragons. (Do not ask for details as I will not
supply them).
Humbly, I AM
Astral Alien 08-27-2004 11:19 PM
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Two things...
Firstly, though the names of the demons in the goetia are
strikingly similar to some ancient god's names, the idea that the
demons are demonized version of the old gods are just what most
people assume it to be, so there sure answer, unless you can
travel back in time. of course, you may still be right, however,
but it is a possibility, not an assumption.
Secondly, I like your take on the subject, but I do not think that
you can call the belief of goetic spirits as independent entities
silly. My belief is that a named entity has its own "essence" to
some extend, many people can evoke it, but the essence will still
be there. Another thing to note is that spirits do not have a
fixed form, they could probably be taking on the shape of
something humans can recognize, besides, don't our eyes also
intepret the surroundings through our brain first? Even if a
paradoxical thing happened. I doubt your mind will make you "see"
it anyway.
Interesting topic, but many people actually fought over it without
considering its practicality, the way you view it does not really
give you more success or failures.
1000ShadesofGrey 08-27-2004 11:25 PM
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Quote:
As a final observation I will say that the Dragons of our legends
are NOT the only Dragons. (Do not ask for details as I will not
supply them).
Humbly, I AM
Well, could you kindly tell me where and how can I get those
details myself, please ?
I AM 08-27-2004 11:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000ShadesofGrey
Well, could you kindly tell me where and how can I get those
details myself, please ?
The only way I know of to get these details is to actually meet
one of these Beings. They came into my life unexpectedly as THEY
came to ME but I imagine that if a person were to focus on meeting
a Dragon while in the Astral it might just work.
They will not appear to everyone. Remember how they have been
treated historically by humans. They had no clue why they were
hunted and killed and did not understand our fear of them.
However, they have NOT forgotten.
I wish you luck my friend.
Humbly, I AM
1000ShadesofGrey 08-27-2004 11:57 PM
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Thanks.
Mmothra 08-28-2004 12:00 AM
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Frankly, I don't think this is a topic that can be settled to
everyone's satisfaction...it is SO personal, SO idiosyncratic that
even within myself I find several competing points of view.
My intuition tells me that there are both projected aspects of the
human mind AND completely independent entities involved in
magickal work. My astral work has led me to believe that at some
level of being there is no real difference between these
independent critters and those that leap from our sub- and
unconscious minds...they exist on a continuum of perception and
reality and it really all depends on where you and "your head" are
how you experience the manifestation of "other".
Digression: Never met or spoke with a dragon...wouldn't mind as I
always secretly empathized with Smaug in The Hobbit and, in the
same way that speaking with a vampire who had lived thousands of
years and seen civilizations and social customs come and go,
speaking with a truly mythical creature of great intelligence and
power would be pretty fascinating.
So, the bottom line for me in this particular kibble of space-time
is that I don't care and am ultimately unable to determine if
perceived entities are "real" or not. What interests me is how my
consciousness (and consequently behavior) is transformed by the
experience of perceiving them. Many of us talk about how "the
process is important but results are what really matter". My point
is that the only results we can ever truly ascertain are changes
to our internal landscape and the manifesting alterations in the
way we interact with our external environment in all its glorious
confusion.
MarkusMmothra
Specktackular 08-28-2004 02:58 AM
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"It's all in your mind... but you have no idea how big your mind
is!"
-- Lon Milo Duquette
see also Son of A Montage's recent post: http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=7237
"The universe is mental"... you can change your mind.
Wiseone 08-28-2004 03:05 AM
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well i do know for certain that dragons are real as are many other
mytholocial creatures. in some books ive read these creatures used
to have a good realtionship with humans in the ancient world but
when some religions came into the scene like christianity they
moved into another realm to avoid being hunted down and
everything.
though not sure if what i say is really true that is what ive
found out from some books and stuff.
Ekron 08-28-2004 03:12 AM
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As I believe in a God, The All, The Point or whatever semantics
one cares to use to describe IT. And as such I believe in its
emanations/manifestations.
I perceive the universe existing in many dimensions. I herd one
scientist say recently that there could be 11 dimensions. Sadly he
did not qualify that statement but it was connected with the
'String Theory', relativity and quantum mechanics (see "The
Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene).
So the ancient Qabalistic mystics could have got it right with the
emanations of the 10 sephira plus Daath. And to each one is
assigned an archangel and order of angels. Science has yet to
'prove' them but they have not yet fully opened their minds to the
hidden dimensions.
Specktackular 08-28-2004 03:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekron
As I believe in a God, The All, The Point or whatever semantics
one cares to use to describe IT. And as such I believe in its
emenations/manifestations.
I perceive the universe existing in many dimensions. I herd one
scientist say recently that there could be 11 dimensions. Sadly he
did not qualify that statement but it was connected with the
'String Theory', relativity and quantum mechanics (see "The
Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene).
So the ancient Qabalistic mystics could have got it right with the
emenations of the 10 sephira plus Daath. And to each one is
assigned an archangel and order of angels. Science has yet to
'prove' them but they have not yet fully opened their minds to the
hidden dimensions.
Yep! I read that book twice. The second time, I highlighted each
instance of God-like terminology as opposed to scientific.
MaeveQ 08-28-2004 03:41 AM
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I cant know for sure but I think that those beings are independent
mostly. There may be some that are extensions of our mind but I
think most are not. At least not now.
Radiant Star 08-28-2004 03:53 AM
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I have seen several things at different times that fit the
mythical description, creatures that I have never seen on earth in
my ordinary life and I don't think I have even seen them in books
and they are all different; one ran away from me, a couple seemed
to be coming for me and so I panicked and banished and one was
circling me and watching; all looked me in the face - I really
don't know what that means, but I was fascinated and would love to
see one of them again, if only I knew how to get it back.
I would have thought these to be things in my head but they have
only appeared since I started CM and only appeared if I have not
done my ritual properly or closed my circle.
I have no way of proving that I have seen them or that they have
not come from my mind, but there again I cannot prove that my
unseen helpers exist either, apart from having been told things
that I could not have known and have the information come true,
witnessed by two others
I would like to think that they were imaginary in some ways, then
I need never banish or worry if I got my ritual work wrong; only I
believe they are real.
Rays
Kuroyagi 08-28-2004 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Ultimately I think the reason this question has really never been
answered is that either one is fully dedicated to one view or the
other OR the question becomes irrelevant.
I mostly agree w nuhads statement here...whether one sees it (eg
evocation) as "finding" a path to (contact) an entity or
projecting said entity out from your mind is largely a question of
taste- or if one wants: practicality: if one nearly craps his
pants cause some green gaseous shape lingers in ones room Id
consider it as highly impractical to view it as a mere figment of
ones imagination only..
edit: I AM: one small thing: on the one hand you say that the only
info on dragons can be obtained by being contacted by them but on
the other you wrote that they are (or had been) "historical"-
wouldnt that imply that there are records etc of them? (Im just
asking cause this interests me too)
I AM 08-28-2004 07:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroyagi
edit: I AM: one small thing: on the one hand you say that the only
info on dragons can be obtained by being contacted by them but on
the other you wrote that they are (or had been) "historical"-
wouldnt that imply that there are records etc of them? (Im just
asking cause this interests me too)
Hey my friend!
There are many legends and writings of Dragons. Knights slaying
Dragons. Humans stealing their treasure. They once were a part of
this world. Their legends exist in almost every culture and their
legendary knowledge of magick is also included in many of these
writings.
They chose to leave our world because they became hunted beings
for no reason but that they were different. And leaving this world
is really a misnomer. They have left the world of human's
perception.
I cannot prove this but I suspect that many other mythical
creatures left the world of our perception for similar reasons. I
have only met Dragons. I have no direct knowledge of other Beings.
I am very protective of these Beings as I consider them my
friends.
Humbly, I AM
pAmphAge 08-28-2004 07:54 AM
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We have a lot of faeries in W. Hollywood. They seem real enough to
me, but I don't go around poking them with my wand or anything to
make sure. *shrug*
As far as Goetic spirits...they certainly feel like real entities
to me, and that's how I treat them. When I work with the planetary
seals from the Greater Key, however, now THAT feels more like
awakening parts of my subconscious.
As far as a magician claiming they have the only Gamori locked in
a brass jar or something is absurd. In *their* Microcosm, YES, of
course. But the spirit will still exist in the Macrocosm for other
magicians to invoke into their own Microcosm with varying results,
thus accounting for some discrepencies. If the discrepencies are
too great, however, then probably a mistake lies with one of the
magicians.
pAmphAge
Specktackular 08-28-2004 08:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
Hey my friend!
There are many legends and writings of Dragons. Knights slaying
Dragons. Humans stealing their treasure. They once were a part of
this world. Their legends exist in almost every culture and their
legendary knowledge of magick is also included in many of these
writings.
They chose to leave our world because they became hunted beings
for no reason but that they were different. And leaving this world
is really a misnomer. They have left the world of human's
perception.
I cannot prove this but I suspect the many other mythical
creatures left the world of our perception for similar reasons. I
have only met Dragons. I have no direct knowledge of other Beings.
I am very protective of these Beings as I consider them my
friends.
Humbly, I AM
That is the coolest thing I have read in a while! Were there
specific books relating to dragons that facilitated your meeting
them or did it just happen and you were somewhat surprised to see
a dragon?
I AM 08-28-2004 08:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by pAmphAge
We have a lot of faeries in W. Hollywood. They seem real enough to
me, but I don't go around poking them with my wand or anything to
make sure. *shrug*
As far as Goetic spirits...they certainly feel like real entities
to me, and that's how I treat them. When I work with the planetary
seals from the Greater Key, however, now THAT feels more like
awakening parts of my subconscious.
As far as a magician claiming they have the only Gamori locked in
a brass jar or something is absurd. In *their* Microcosm, YES, of
course. But the spirit will still exist in the Macrocosm for other
magicians to invoke into their own Microcosm with varying results,
thus accounting for some discrepencies. If the discrepencies are
too great, however, then probably a mistake lies with one of the
magicians.
pAmphAge
Well said sir! One has only to summon many of these beings to be
convinced that they are REAL. The power of many entities is such
that they cannot be fully contained by Magickians especially when
they are first starting out. Some never. While it is true that
they are within they are also without.
I liken it to having all the possible phone numbers within
ourselves. When we put them together correctly they DO exist
within us. However, they also call the entity that is external to
us. On banishing we close the link. This is a difficult concept to
explain.
Humbly, I AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Specktackular
That is the coolest thing I have read in a while! Were there
specific books relating to dragons that facilitated your meeting
them or did it just happen and you were somewhat surprised to see
a dragon?
Trust me it just happened and no one was as surprised as me. You
see I used to think that people who talked about meeting and being
friends with Dragons were perhaps confused. While I did not judge
what they said and kept an open mind the thought was there that
they were misinformed.
These Dragons came into MY life. And I have become richer for the
experience. Their loyalty knows no bounds. I am a convert and now
KNOW that they exist.
Humbly, I AM
Specktackular 08-28-2004 08:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I AM, were you in the middle of a ritual or anything when the
Dragon showed up... or was it like DMK says in "Modern Magick"
that sometimes "astral junk" just shows up like a serpent's head
in your living room and you can either choose to ignore it or not?
I don't mean to imply that the Dragon is merely "astral junk" at
all, but essentially I am just asking if it showed up out of the
blue like that.
Wiseone 08-28-2004 01:11 PM
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well i do know that everyone has a soul companion that is a
mytholicical creature and most would have a dragon but may be a
unicorn or something.
well I AM is the dragons youve met your soul companion as well i
would like to know and everything as im curios on that.
Noxlux 08-28-2004 07:10 PM
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Haven't you guys heard? THats why magick works so poorly nowadays
... in the 14th century it was like someone called for Bael or
whomever and they really came with thunder and sulphur ... but as
the years went along more and more magickians imprisoned one or
anohter of the demons and tortured them and kept them in little
boxes.
That is the background of the present sad state of affairs, where
if you call a demon som astral forces may play along, but all of
the heavyweight champions are sitting in little boxes all over the
world. This is why it takes years of training to becmoe a real
magickian - if you do not have a strong and trained will the
astral wont play along.
Except every once in a while ... when one of the real demons
escape - thats when we have situations more resemblant of like the
local magickian I read about in the morning paper the other day. I
had already noticed some rather unusual phenomena; horrendous
numbers of flies, the stench of rotted flesh, and more rats than
usual in one part of the city where I live. These phenomena got
their explanation from what I read in the paper: Total beginner -
summened one of the heavies from the Goetia . WHAM we had our
local version of the beginning of the excorcist immediately. A
gang war erupted in the magickians neighborhod - death count so
far is 28, not counting the the tragic traffic accidents which has
soared in that area. And the magickian himself was commited to a
mental asylum after killing and eating his family.
That will teach him how to draw a proper triangle next time :-)
x
x
x
On a more serious note, if I shall venture out on the thin ice of
metaphysics, I have often felt that the criteria gregory bateson
sets fort for "mind" do not in any way limit minds to existing
inside human brains. And perhaps there may be minds out there who
may be contacted through the interface of evocation and so forth.
Beings we have no way of interfacing with directly with our
conscious minds (i.e. the nonadepts amongst us).
Nox "The universe is mental" - But so am I :-)
Kuroyagi 08-28-2004 10:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
Hey my friend!
There are many legends and writings of Dragons. Knights slaying
Dragons. Humans stealing their treasure. They once were a part of
this world. Their legends exist in almost every culture and their
legendary knowledge of magick is also included in many of these
writings.
They chose to leave our world because they became hunted beings
for no reason but that they were different. And leaving this world
is really a misnomer. They have left the world of human's
perception.
I cannot prove this but I suspect that many other mythical
creatures left the world of our perception for similar reasons. I
have only met Dragons. I have no direct knowledge of other Beings.
I am very protective of these Beings as I consider them my
friends.
Humbly, I AM
I at least know of some eastern variant, as for the
physical/planes-mingling: Im quite sceptical but so were you it
seems- so Im gonna take your word for it, my man! :)
(one doesnt want to restrict oneself after all ;))
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