Goetia Questions

Goetia Questions (http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=4590)

Sigillum Dei Ĉmeth 07-05-2004 05:24 PM

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Goetia Questions

1. The Goetia is also called The Lesser Key of Solomon. I'm aware there is a Greater Key of Solomon. Could someone explain the differences?

2. We all hear about the Goetic spirits being stupid or mean or brutish. Has anyone had a large number of experiences where the opposite is the case? Granted they and their effects are potentially dangerous, but have you encountered many willing/friendly Goetic spirits?

3. Has anyone spoken at length with a Goetic spirit? If so, which one?

4. I'm considering an experiment in which the spirit is intentionally left unbanished. This is not to see what happens or for play. The plan is to create or summon a watcher to test my abilities in working with IT. It will keep a solid eye on the spirit and prevent it from doing anything dangerous.

Thanks

In L.V.X.,

Sigillum Dei Ĉmeth

Kaymon 07-05-2004 09:14 PM

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The lesser key of solomon is another book concerned with summoning demons.
The greater key of solomon is a mix of both, including planetary hours, planetary talismans etc.

Goetic spirits are demons.. and most demons have the same principles. If you are seen as a threat then they will attack you. However if you treat them with respect then they wont be likely to attack you, they would at least just ignore you.

Why would you want to leave a spirit "unbanished".. not that I like the whole banishing idea anyway as if you thought about it logically no being wants to be trapped inside the triangle for anymore time than it has to... can you not just say "thank you for appearing, go on your way"

If you created a watcher yourself then I do not think it would stand up agaisnt a real demon for one second. But I am unaware of what a real watcher is??

The demon wont do anything dangerous if you don't piss it off, so there is no need to keep it there, unless you want to get hurt?

Kaymon

morphine 07-05-2004 10:00 PM

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I personally believe that a level of adoration towards a goetic demon can be the best defense.I might be wrong however.

Commanding a demon can be pretty stupid in my opinion.
Fear again can be a problem.Precaution and adoration are the keywords for an evocation I guess.

take care

morphine

I AM 07-05-2004 10:08 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigillum Dei Ĉmeth
1. The Goetia is also called The Lesser Key of Solomon. I'm aware there is a Greater Key of Solomon. Could someone explain the differences?

2. We all hear about the Goetic spirits being stupid or mean or brutish. Has anyone had a large number of experiences where the opposite is the case? Granted they and their effects are potentially dangerous, but have you encountered many willing/friendly Goetic spirits?

3. Has anyone spoken at length with a Goetic spirit? If so, which one?

4. I'm considering an experiment in which the spirit is intentionally left unbanished. This is not to see what happens or for play. The plan is to create or summon a watcher to test my abilities in working with IT. It will keep a solid eye on the spirit and prevent it from doing anything dangerous.

Thanks

In L.V.X.,

Sigillum Dei Ĉmeth



The Greater and Lesser Keys can be downloaded for FREE here in this Forum. Go to the Grimoires and other Magickal Writings topic at the top of the CM Forum. That way you can see for yourself what the differences are.

There are many Goetics that are pleasant and many Goetics can do GOOD things.

Many in the Forums have summoned and talked to a Goetic Entity. Search the topics and you will find more than one experience that has been shared.

Failure to Banish a Goetic force may well ruin your entire day. These forces can be very dangerous. Banish. Failure to Banish may not just affect you, it can also affect others around you.

A Watcher? I assume you are talking about the Watcher from the Necronomicon. I personally do not think it is a good idea to mix systems. Additionally, the Watchers are not forces to be trifled with as they are very dangerous as well. As for it keeping watch on a Goetic Entity...I had not ever considered experimenting like that. If you do try this let us know your results.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaymon
Goetic spirits are demons.. and most demons have the same principles. If you are seen as a threat then they will attack you. However if you treat them with respect then they wont be likely to attack you, they would at least just ignore you.



In my experience with Summoning the Goetic Entities this is absolutely NOT true. They DO NOT ignore the Magickian. They DO NOT attack the magickain because they perceive the Magickian as a threat. And I would NOT presume to know what a Demon's principles are.

I DO recommend that you treat the Goetic Entities with respect. It is just a better relationship that way. However, you need to remain in control of the situation.

Humbly, I AM

Grab 07-06-2004 12:05 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
Failure to Banish a Goetic force may well ruin your entire day. These forces can be very dangerous. Banish. Failure to Banish may not just affect you, it can also affect others around you.



Hi I AM,

Interesting that you call them forces, and not entities or demons. Care to elaborate on that decision?



Quote:
A Watcher? I assume you are talking about the Watcher from the Necronomicon. I personally do not think it is a good idea to mix systems.


While I agree that it seems questionable to mess with Watchers in this particular case, one should remember that it's been a tradition in all Hermetic schools to mix a lot of stuff, some egyptian goddess invoked in the name of some semitic god form, using words selected from the hellenic stoicheia. Pretty wacky, if you ask me, but it really does work.

Further, one remembers that the Nec "forces" (such as the 50 marduk spirits) respond well also for a classic Goetia style ritual. That is also a mix of systems, but in a safer direction, I guess.

/Grab

Aodh 07-06-2004 01:01 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
[/b]
Further, one remembers that the Nec "forces" (such as the 50 marduk spirits) respond well also for a classic Goetia style ritual. That is also a mix of systems, but in a safer direction, I guess.

/Grab

The Necronomicon is also very commonly considered to have been a fictional work thus if any of the beings within it truly react they are most likely thoughtforms built up by collective belief or creation thus in the end as the beings are artificial in creation and didn't exist before they were written down in that book as true entities it would be safe to presume that the way people were led to believe they should summon them would end up being the way they most easily responded. What I'm trying to say is, it's like if I made up some being but a lot of people believed in it for a while and attempted summoning it using rituals I developed but as teh beings were fictional didn't use. Through the collective belief in them the fictional beings took on energetic personages and eventually became as 'real' as a servitor and answered to the summoning ritual and acted according to popular belief while they were becoming true beings. But of course the Necromonicon being real is debatable on both sides so you never know if they were created in this manner or they were actual beings *shrugs* Anywho, that's just my point about how the rituals of the Necromonicon being 'mixed' wouldn't have much bearing. Note this isn't a flame, just my opinions based on experiences of various sorts.

I AM 07-06-2004 03:11 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grab
[/b]
Hi I AM,

Interesting that you call them forces, and not entities or demons. Care to elaborate on that decision?

/Grab



It is just terminology that I have used over the years that I am comfortable with. I have never been comfortable with referring to them as Demons. That is not how I view them. Additionally, I use the word forces because the method of action for "Angels" and "Demons" has appeared to me over the years to be quite different. The way these forces "discharge" after Ritual is different as well. Just my opinion and my terminology.

Humbly, I AM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aodh
The Necronomicon is also very commonly considered to have been a fictional work thus if any of the beings within it truly react they are most likely thoughtforms built up by collective belief or creation thus in the end as the beings are artificial in creation and didn't exist before they were written down in that book as true entities it would be safe to presume that the way people were led to believe they should summon them would end up being the way they most easily responded. What I'm trying to say is, it's like if I made up some being but a lot of people believed in it for a while and attempted summoning it using rituals I developed but as teh beings were fictional didn't use. Through the collective belief in them the fictional beings took on energetic personages and eventually became as 'real' as a servitor and answered to the summoning ritual and acted according to popular belief while they were becoming true beings. But of course the Necromonicon being real is debatable on both sides so you never know if they were created in this manner or they were actual beings *shrugs* Anywho, that's just my point about how the rituals of the Necromonicon being 'mixed' wouldn't have much bearing. Note this isn't a flame, just my opinions based on experiences of various sorts.



The Simon Necronomicon, as well as the others, are fake in that they are not the real Necronomicon. However, the Entities ARE real. They can be summoned and the GATES CAN be walked. There are other topics that discuss this.

Humbly, I AM

Ludi 07-06-2004 03:48 AM

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Quote:
Commanding a demon can be pretty stupid in my opinion.



The evocations in the Goetia are phrased as "commands," the word "command" in fact being used in the conjuration.

"I DO invocate and conjure thee, O Spirit, N. 30; and being with power armed from the SUPREME MAJESTY, I do strongly command thee, by BERALANENSIS, BALDACHIENSIS, PAUMACHIA, and APOLOGIAE SEDES; by the most Powerful Princes, Genii, Liachidee, and Ministers of the Tartarean Abode; and by the Chief Prince of the Seat of Apologia in the Ninth Legion, I do invoke thee, and by invocating conjure thee..."

Do you feel this is the wrong approach?

Sigillum Dei Ĉmeth 07-06-2004 04:50 AM

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First and most importantly, I have never read the Necronomicon, so until I AM mentioned it, I had no idea about the Watcher. I guess I should've said servitor. Secondly, I think Kaymon is right. There is no reason to leave a spirit trapped there for an experiment. Very disrespectful I agree. It brings an old entity worthy of admiration down to the level of a lab mouse, and I see the cruelty in doing so.

In L.V.X.,

Sigillum Dei Ĉmeth

 


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