Evocation Advice from Experienced Magicians

freedverse1152 08-20-2004 06:27 PM
Hello all,

This is my first post to this board. I've been looking for a place to share recent experiences with fellow ceremonial magicians. Recently, a group of friends and I set out to discover a little bit more about an entity we had previously observed whilst traveling in woodlands near my home to a site where we typically do ritual evocation.
This particular entity seemed to have the form of a woman carrying a baby. Now, I know that so called "spiritist" practices are dangerous, but our curiousity was piqued, and so we decided to evoke this being and see what we could learn of her. Now, I have felt the aura of the so called demon "princes" described in the lemegeton and other works of similar nature, and have "seen" them in my triangle on numerous occasions. I am no novice to evocation, but this woman carrying her baby far defied my expectations. Let me proceed.
We evoked the woman, and her baby to the point where they were visible by the "sight." Previously we had felt an evil sort of chill coming off of this woman, but when we got them into the triangle the feeling intensified to a fevered pitch. Surprisingly, the baby seemed to be a source of this power, a blistering blackness that spread from the triangle and stopped at the boundary of our circle. When we looked closely at the infants face, it seemed to change, a little boy, an infant, then serpents would writhe about it's face from it's temples and disappear. Never did the infants face and form stop it continous mutability.
As i've said, I've evoked demon princes and felt their power, but it was NOTHING compared to the palpable evil that radiated from this sinister infant. The woman was weak, and from querying here, we determined that her and the baby were bound. She tried to present the baby to me (I'm the ritual leader, and was in the lead for communication.) I had a strong feeling that It was extremely unwise to accept :). As i've said, the presence of the baby (if that's even what it was, was totally evil, ineffably horrible.) Even after giving the adjuration, and subsequently, the liscence and banishings, the presence lingered near the borders of our circle. Feeling a little impotent, I proceeded from the LBRP, through The BRH, and the supreme banishing ritual of the pentagram. Each of these rituals had little or no effect in causing the spirit to depart, only to retreat a measurable distance from our circle and remained, watching us. Even the adjurations of solomon had little effect. Eventually, we made our way, with linked hands and weapons drawn, away from it's area of influence and back towards my home, which the spirit seemed reluctant to approach.
This entity inhabits some local woodlands, and had previously been benign (Though very very interested in us and our movements.) but I have never felt a sense of such raw power before in my entire ritual carreer. In comparison to the strength of say guland, whom I felt confident in summoning, and successfully completed the operation, this baby was far stronger.
Whatever it is, it cloaked itself in layers of obfuscation, so that from a distance it appeared as a typical benign watcher of ritual, as are often attracted to magical workings, but up close and personal It was revealed as a being of far greater depth and power.
From what i've experienced, I know a few facts about this entity, they are as follows.

The woman was weak, a carrier.
The entity has a geographical limitation on it's movements.
The "Baby" was an extremely strong and palpably bad sort of entity.
The woman tried to give me the baby.

Has anyone else encountered ANYTHING like this before? What does one do when normal banishing rituals fall short completely? And most importantly, why would this innocous spirit seem so much more powerful than so called demon "Princes" that I have evoked?
I feel totally lost for the first time in my career as a magician, and am almost (but not quite :) afraid to venture into my woods for the first time I can remember. Any insight into this experience from older/more experienced practitioners is greatly appreciated. My group and I (6) are all in the 21-25 range of age, but have been working together for about four years, and have seen a few up's and down's, and done some serious workings, but never encountered anything like this. We live in new england, (connecticut).

Thanks much.


Thanks all,

flyinhighagain 08-20-2004 11:56 PM


The apparition could be a number of things.
However, I believe congratulations are in order my friend - IMHO - you are one of the few members of this forum who have actually seen & felt a demonic spirit in its true form. Scary huh?

It amazes me that people call and call and call hoping for a real demonic to pick up the phone - thinking oh I dunno that maybe the nice demon could get me a date with the prom queen, or a million bucks or spiritual enlightenment or what have you. - Its all bull$%#@ brother
you have now seen for yourself just exactly what you have been inviting into your life.

The woman was weak, a carrier.>>>maybe, maybe not - the demonic usually come to visit in groups - there will be one powerful intelligence behind the lower demons - their behavior may appear to be chaotic but it is all orchestrated by one master controlling the others -- usually this entity will never allow its identity or existence to be made known and everything you see,hear & feel from them will be a mix of the truth and lies to lead you somewhere they wish for you to go ->>>>>

The entity has a geographical limitation on it's movements.
<<<<don't count on that my friend :) >>>>>>
The "Baby" was an extremely strong and palpably bad sort of entity.
<<<< and the baby wants you to be his daddy :) isn't that sweet :)>>>
The woman tried to give me the baby.

<<<< And will continue to try perhaps through more subtle means. I believe you are being offered a relationship with a true demonic entity. It can, if properly served - and believe me you will be the one doing the serving -provide you with much of what you might wish for of this darkly splendid world:)

There will of course be a heavy price to be paid :) My advice is to stoop not down brother.
You could stay out of the woods for a while - but most likely its going to keep approaching you.

If it does continue to approach you, in this form or other wise - you are going to have to face the mother%$#^&* down with everything you spiritually have. If it is a demonic - and you do not want it in your life -you are going to need a strong connection to a higher power or its gonna get ugly

May God in all his/her forms watch over you


LadyHydralisk 08-21-2004 01:08 AM


Cool story. I think more investigation and information is needed. Have you brought your inquiries to higher entities, say the archangels perhaps?

malachius 08-21-2004 03:19 AM


Hi Freedverse

Amazing story.
Even if I had not been bewitched by the lovely and knowledgeble Ladyhydralisk., :)
I would heartly agree with her suggestion - find out what you are dealing with through whatever means available.
Ask your spiritual friends just what you are dealing with and why. It's not very common
for an entity like this to just show up in your life with no purpose.

I would also agree - partially - at least with my combative friend Flyinhihagain - I would stay out of the woods until you find out what you are dealing with. Any entity who can resist the banishing methods you
used should be approached with extreme caution.

Please keep us updated.

Good luck


Grab 08-21-2004 03:24 AM


Story 1: This reminds me of something I heard about asian evil "tree spirits". They can be localized around, say... a nice bungalow on a beach resort. They can be "banished" through the means of amulets of a local nature, but if you just get scared and move to another bungalow/resort it might get angrier and move with you, causing trouble.

Story 2: Once I thought, what would be much more scary than a Goetia demon? I visualized how it would look and act and sound... just like that - not within a ritual or anything. Every time I think about the mo-fo, I get the creeps. Also, I have no use for it whatsoever, since any application of it would be black. Very very black indeed. Perhaps I should evoke it and get a sigil and name for it, then I could sell it on the "black market".... :lol:

Gryzlgreedigutt 08-21-2004 06:50 AM


Perhaps the answers to this riddle lie with the Female Apparition. She appears to be hosting, mothering it seems by your description, The Demonic Entity. Its possible she sees it as a baby and therefore "shields" it with her protective Motherly Powers. She, in her innocence could watch such rituals safely but the demonic is somehow feeding off not only the apparition but the apparitions innocence. In other words, maybe its using the female apparition as a circle??Perhaps this is how it withstands these rituals. Maybe you could get her to somehow see it for what it is, and get het to abandon it somehow. Maybe convince her to put it in The Triangle? I can't for the life of me imagine what could happen should you attempt something like that but I know I'd sure like to hear about it.

palindroem 08-21-2004 10:42 AM


freedverse, I agree with lady H about doing more investigation.

Outside of the CM "goetic" or "angelic" type of entities, theres a fairly wide range of more . . . natural entities that are often defined by thier geography. They can easily be of a nature that we'd consider evil.
Are there any significant (large or intricate) geological structures in the area. . . boulders, hot springs, fissures. Is the area geologically unstable. An unusual history?
I'm aware of natural entities demonstrating themselvs as multiples, even though we could consider thier source a singular "object". Sounds similar to your encounter.
Maybe some scrying of the area . . . but I wouldn't necassarily suggest projecting to there. See if you can determine a source.
Also, maybe . . . if you can determin its outer boundaries, evoke it near its boundary (or just outside). Its reasonable that with the additional energy you'd be providing that the entitie should have enough to sustain a presense, but only just enough.

I'd also agree with cautionary suggestions. If, natural entities can manifest VERY strongly within thier territory.

These kinds of critters aren't like goetic demons . . . they aren't from some other plane of resonance. They are creatures wholely OF that place . . . our plane. You CM skill may not avail you well.

m1thr0s 08-21-2004 12:45 PM


I am inclined to agree with LadyH on this one. Demon or no demon my instincts tell me there is a connection to the land itself. There's some kind of history here...some painful truth that needs expression. As a rule, demons don't just wander around the woods looking for unsuspecting victims to unload their bile upon. This whole incident is frankly much more akin to ghosts. Don't underestimate ghosts...they have a powerful role to play in things...You should also consider the possibility that you may be dealing with some kind of witch force close to the land itself. Something old, probably before the whites took over the area. Ascertain what you can of the tribes that used to live in this region and what their myths were if you can. You may have an old witch on your hands...

Let us not become overly enamored with our astonishing magickal prowess here but rather set to work identifying who and what we are actually dealing with. This situation calls for careful detective work. It will not be resolved if we assume too much of anything...Focus on practical matters as well as lofty ones. What can you actually remember about this woman...would you say she was a white woman or maybe Indian or none of the above?

The child is disturbing this is true. This is right out of a Steven King novel only even more bone-chilling in its symbology somehow. Don't let it get away from you by being too cocky - not that you are - but I've seen this happen before. There is an opportunity here for serious learning. I would NOT discount the ghost/witch possibility and try to ascertain where this may lead you in terms of information gathering...


LadyHydralisk 08-21-2004 01:02 PM


What if, say the two really were two and not one entity. like a mother staying behind to care for a child that had died at an early age and gone demonic. I mean it does have a face only a mother could love.

Ghosts seem to be drawn to magicians because they sense in them their only salvation. I think we are the only bridge between lost souls and the realms higher to them.

This reminds me of this episode of Inuyasha "Behold, the unmother, born from the sorrow of losing countless children to war and famine!" hehehe

I've blasted similar things into oblivion but regretted it later because of what I could have learned, they are that rare. Also good deeds are always better than blasting.

We must presherve the speshimun!!!! :::rubs hands together greedily like smeagol:::

m1thr0s 08-21-2004 01:12 PM


That's very good LadyH - I was just going to add that very comment. You can take a baseball bat to this phenomenum if you wish and probably succeed in pushing it back but - will you have gained what might have been gained from the experience? I would treat this situation with reverence and caution and try to get to the truth of it...

If this were some kind of ghost, the old woman is more key than the child. The child is more likely to be a manifestation of her guilt or despair which has become increasingly awful the longer she has embraced it. You said she seemed weary - she may well be - you may be able to open a door for her somehow but you need to know more about who she is. Assume nothing, ask everything. This is a gift of some kind. Learn to use it well...

Take it from an old warrior my friend. Never use an axe when a healing herb will do...


Redeemer 08-21-2004 07:19 PM


Just as an FYI,

There is alot of activity in the woods in many parts of connecticut. In addition we are located in a hotbed of geological activity. There is a town in central connecticut located on a fault line that experiences earthquakes (albeit very minor) almost daily. I believe the town is Moodus.

fiat_lux_777 08-21-2004 08:33 PM


Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk
What if, say the two really were two and not one entity. like a mother staying behind to care for a child that had died at an early age and gone demonic. I mean it does have a face only a mother could love.

Ghosts seem to be drawn to magicians because they sense in them their only salvation. I think we are the only bridge between lost souls and the realms higher to them.


Dear Lady Hydralisk,

Excellent point, and one which has been rarely mentioned in threads on Goetia. As stated in the grimoires, often the demons are hopeful of "salvation" and are willing to provide their services in the hope that it leads them towards "the light". As is evidenced by the Abramelin Operation itself, wherein the magician, after receiving an influx of the light, proceeds to evoke the denizens of Hell, in effect transferring some of that benediction to those most wanting :)

93 93/93


m1thr0s 08-21-2004 08:36 PM


That's interesting Redeemer...didn't know that...that might lend power to things somehow, thins the veils and contributes volcanic upsurge to things. It doesn't produce demons in itself but that kind of energy parallels raw violent emotional energy in general so could become a kind of vortex for these perhaps...you want to be careful of the well-to-hell scenario though...that's mostly just a bunch of hollywood bs...natural cataclysmic force does find its equivalence in psychic energy realms though so it's a factor you'd want to weigh into things...it's more of an amplification mechanism than anything else...


palindroem 08-21-2004 08:51 PM


Yeah, the salvation angle only works if its a forces the openly or secretly hopes for a "higher realm" salvation.
If this mother/child entity(s) is a more environmental or natural-based entity . . . salvation probably isn't what its looking for.
Or at least the type of salvation that strokes our ego.
Its my experience, these forces find "salvation" more in exclusion to us rather then inclusion.
Some are developed enough to view us as challanges or advisaries in a natural-order hierarchy. We're not saviors . . . more like the enemy. (who can argue, seeing as how we as a whole think about ourselves and act toward the environment)

m1thr0s 08-21-2004 09:02 PM


once again it depends on exactly who or what we're dealing with palindroem. most disease appears ghastly on its face...that doesn't make the victim some kind of demon or enemy combatant...guilt, sorrow, despair, suffering on all levels distorts features and creates a ghoulish composite in general but that doesn't make every sufferer a ghoul. The issue is not one of playing savior so much as being careful not to jump to a bunch of adolescant conclusions and then act stupidly upon these...the magickal art is all-too-often viewed as some sort of astral kung-fu when in reality it is primarily a healing art and science...Restoring a balance is always preferable to blasting a hole to no good purpose...sometimes you have to blast anyway and then you do it hard and resolutely but this should always be a last resort and purely in self-defense. So far, no one has actually been assaulted here...


Master of the Abyss 08-21-2004 10:15 PM


I would like to comment on the aspect of the difference in power between this apparition and a summoned goetic. IMHO, it is obvious that you can summon an entity to different "degrees of reality". The difference between a successful and an unsuccessful summoning is a gradual one. Hence, it seems only logical that even in the part of the scale we use to sum up as "successful operations", there are numerous differences in quality and phenomena. For the sake of simplicity, I like to think of evocations as operations that draw a (tiny) percentage of the demon's power into our world.

Try and imagine a full "100%" summoning of, say, Bael on earth. That would be a fully physical monster entity of wondrous powers who would bring its legions (a legion is 5000 to 15000 demons) in the same fashion and couldn't care less for your circle and triangle, but would go to kill, burn, and bring about the end of the world. We don't seem to achieve that so far, and perhaps subconscious resistance to the result stops most people from achieving even blurry, short-time physical manifestations.

What we perceive is not the full power of an entity, but just the part of it that is inside our field of perception. Hence, even beings with a much smaller "sum total" of power can appear more powerful than a demon that only a small fraction of has been summoned. In this case, I would suppose (like previous posters have) that the apparition has a connection to the land, which is an enormous advantage. It could be compared to a fetish that an entity is connected to, except the fetish is several square miles big. If you're in for an experiment, try and summon a (say) goetic entity into a fetish and don't banish it: my guess is that the effects can easily be worse than this "natural" apparition.

I do know two similar cases. One is apparently natural and has, according to local folk lore, been around since a farm in the area was razed in the Thirty Years' War of the 17th century. It consists of a whole group of ghosts, including several dogs. The other was created by a friend of mine who opened a demonic gate in a forest area and left it open. Unlike the other, it does not seem to spawn individual apparitions, but causes a suffocating feeling of fear and revulsion. We'll see what develops out of it.

If you wish to resolve the issue, redeem the demon, clear the area, or whatever you call it, I can only advise you to be extremely careful. Such workings are among the most dangerous a magician may undertake, and can easily cost lives (not necessarily just your own, either). You might be a lot better off working out some kind of truce and establishing a working relationship with the entity. This is not without its own set of dangers, of course. You might wish to contact an experienced shaman and/or geomancer to advise or assist you.

LadyHydralisk 08-21-2004 11:31 PM


Yep, good points Master of the Abyss, as usual.

M1thr0s the concept that somehow the baby is a representation of her guilt is brilliant, I never thought of it that way. There are many women who feel great guilt over the loss of a child shortly after birth, or feel guilt after delivering a stillborn or even aborted fetuses. Well said about the balance being kept...truth spoken

By the way, there is a ley line running under Columbus, Georgia, where I lived (regretably ^_^) for a few years. The entities in that area were horrible, and impossible to banish completely. Just a rottenly haunted place to live. Phenix City, across the river from this town, Columbus, was known in the past as Sin City, or Satan's City. They were featured on a documentary a few years ago that focused on the hauntings in that area that were obviously lesser demonic in nature. So yes I can appreciate the validity of geographical features and the connection with hauntings.

How do you sanctify a whole acre of land? I have absolutely no idea. I think it would be too much for just one magician, because it would be so time consuming and dangerous. You might as well wait for the waters to come in. Surgically removing the entities causing the enviroment would be the course of action I would take.

That's a really interesting tidbit on the Abramelin operation, Fiat Lux, I did not know that. I was raised in enviroment that taught me demons are terrible and powerful entities that can sometimes come to the aid of men but you should be careful not to anger them or attract their attention too much. But that, even if you do, it's not a disaster it will just change your life a whole lot. Also I was taught that they are there to teach us what not to become, but that also, they are a necessary part of a whole, and that it's good to have respect for every living thing, in thought, word and deed.

palindroem 08-22-2004 04:38 AM


Umm . . yeah M1thros, thats kindof what I was saying to. More investigation is warrented. I wasn't suggestion that blasting it is the solution. Only that some spirits see humans (magickal or mundane) as more of an adversarial rival then ally.

Restoring a balance is always preferable to blasting a hole to no good purpose

I would hazard that within the realm of nature-based entities, equilibrium is often easiest achieve when humans stop interferring.

Feeling a little impotent, I proceeded from the LBRP, through The BRH, and the supreme banishing ritual of the pentagram. Each of these rituals had little or no effect in causing the spirit to depart, only to retreat a measurable distance from our circle and remained, watching us. Even the adjurations of solomon had little effect. Eventually, we made our way, with linked hands and weapons drawn

So far, no one has actually been assaulted here

Really . . . maybe the entity felt a bit assaulted. Humans really aren't the only "feeling" creatures in the world.

MotA, I agree entirely. Although I tend to think of it as degree of resonance . . . same same.
Maybe an alternative approach would be to find an entirely different location to do rural magical work.
I just don't believe that in all cases humans are the divine heirs to the right of indiginous displacement. Smacks of arrogance to me.

m1thr0s 08-22-2004 07:43 AM


You know, I don't want to seem judgmental here or anything but this hardly seems like a situation well suited to a bunch of 21-25 year olds...this concerns me somewhat. I would be approaching this one with some hesitation and I've been at this game longer than these kids have been alive (sorry, didn't mean kids in a bad way or anything...). I suspect MoA is quite right in suggesting this may require older and more experienced heads. On the flip-side, they are the ones that seem to have been approached so their involvement is not inconsequential but I can see at least a dozen ways this thing could go way over the top...

It might be worth a shot to try a few things by way of indirection just to test the waters. General cleansing rituals and/or positive energy invokations/evokations in all directions etc. Locate the hot spots and try to clean them out without focusing on any one thing especially...if the occurences persist then you may be ready to go to the next level...perhaps this has already been tried...if so, you might want to start shopping around for a hired gun on some level unless you really feel confident of your own defenses...

ps: I'd definitely keep a journal on all of this by the way. This has all the earmarkings of a really good book at some point, if not an actual movie...not that this should be your motivation obviously but approaching it this way might facilitate good record keeping...


Redeemer 08-23-2004 10:51 PM


I just wanted to bump this back up and ask if the original poster could tell us where in Connecticut exactly this took place. I live in Connecticut and would like to investigate.

Nero 08-23-2004 11:15 PM


Originally Posted by LadyHydralisk

By the way, there is a ley line running under Columbus, Georgia, where I lived (regretably ^_^) for a few years. The entities in that area were horrible, and impossible to banish completely. Just a rottenly haunted place to live. Phenix City, across the river from this town, Columbus, was known in the past as Sin City, or Satan's City.

Now this I find very interesting...
I was born in Columbus, GA and now live only 20 min's away in Auburn, AL. Do you know where I can find more information about this "ley line"?

LadyHydralisk 08-24-2004 01:50 AM


Actually I think it was a fault line. I can't remember. Some scientist on the show said it released positive ions into the air and that this was the cause of hallucinations, possibly.

It was on the travel channel maybe you can find more about it on their site or google it? Or go ask around in Phenix city the girl they interviewed talked about how she was ridiculed for her experiences with demonic entities.

Nero 08-24-2004 01:57 AM


Thanks for the tip. I have already tried google but no go. Mostly fluff and stuff about Christopher Columbus... :?

I will dig into the travel channel site and see what I can get. Not holding my breath.

On a side note, from a science background I do not see how ions could cause any sort of "visions" but whatever. Maybe the good doctor had nothing and had to say something...




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